The Catholic Church is so out of touch with reality

[jennickels]

I don't normally speak a lot about religion or my atheism.  Honestly, religion and spirituality don't interest me much.  But sometimes I read something so... infuriating (although this is pretty mild compared to some nuttery I've seen) I can't help but feel my blood pressure rise.

So I saw this on fstdt.com (should definitely be avoided if you are very religious, they intend to be insulting):

INDIANAPOLIS -- An Indiana teacher who says she was fired from a Roman Catholic school for using in vitro fertilization to try to get pregnant is suing in a case that could set up a legal showdown over reproductive and religious rights.

Emily Herx's lawsuit accuses the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend and St. Vincent de Paul school in Fort Wayne of discrimination for her firing last June. Herx, 31, of Hoagland, Ind., says that the church pastor told her she was a "grave, immoral sinner" and that a scandal would erupt if anyone learned she had undergone in vitro fertilization, or IVF.

The Roman Catholic Church shuns IVF, which involves mixing egg and sperm in a laboratory dish and transferring a resulting embryo into the womb. Herx said she was fired despite exemplary performance reviews in her eight years as a language arts teacher.

Legal experts say Herx's case illustrates a murky area in the debate over separation of church and state that even the U.S. Supreme Court has failed to clearly address.

Diocese officials said in a statement issued to The Associated Press on Wednesday that the lawsuit challenges its rights as a religious institution "to make religious based decisions consistent with its religious standards on an impartial basis."

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled unanimously in January that religious workers can't sue their employers for job discrimination because anti-discrimination laws allow for a "ministerial exception." But the justices failed to define who was and who wasn't a religious employee.

"The Supreme Court didn't give us a kind of neat little on-off test as to who's a minister and who isn't," said Rick Garnett, associate dean and professor of law at Notre Dame Law School.

In a similar case in Ohio, a federal judge last month gave the go-ahead for a trial in a lawsuit against the Archdiocese of Cincinnati by a parochial school teacher who was fired after she became pregnant through artificial insemination, which the church is also against. The archdiocese fired Christa Dias in 2010, saying the single woman violated church doctrine.

U.S. District Judge Arthur Spiegel said in his March 29 ruling that the ministerial exception did not apply because Dias was a non-Catholic computer teacher with no role in ministering or teaching Catholic doctrine.
(to see comments at fstdt go here)

It just makes me shake my head.  Now, I'm the kind of person that would fight for the rights given by the law for any group of people.  I'll even defend the KKK's or WBC's right to spew their hatred.  If they want to use their First Amendment Rights to be asshats that's their prerogative.  Likewise if the teacher in the above case signed a contract (which I assume she did) stating that she couldn't use artificial means to get pregnant, etc, then the schools has grounds to fire her for breach of contract.  I absolutely don't agree with the school but they would have that right.

That's not really what this post is about because I'm not at all into law and politics (which this kind of thing is really about).  It's more about how completely irrational the Catholic Church sounds because of this crap.  It just baffles me that they can't step out of the Dark Ages.  Now I went to Catholic school in Chicago (which is about 2 hours from South Bend) for all of my schooling.  I lived in very Catholic neighborhoods growing up.  My friends were all Catholic, so were most of our neighbors.  My dad's family is all Catholic.

The one thing just about all these people have in common besides their religion: they all believed in birth control, women's rights and freedom for people to make their own decisions.  Abortion is a pretty split decision but a lot of the women in my life are pro-choice (not that I discuss this stuff with them).  And just about all of them think the Catholic Church is crazy.  I've been saying for years (since high school) that eventually the more liberal minded Catholics will have to split from the Roman Catholic Church because their beliefs are so far from what the RCC preaches it would be laughable to call themselves Roman Catholics.  I doubt that happens in my lifetime but it's going to happen if the Church doesn't start moving into the 21st century.

I keep thinking of when I was in school and I can't imagine any of the other teachers, nuns or priests would have looked down upon a woman for using IVF.  Pregnancy outside of marriage... they'd have a problem with that.  But IVF?  I've never heard of that one being against the rules before.  At least the couple is married and the baby is wanted.

Like someone commented at fstdt: The Church really just wants to control women.  Well, control everyone, but especially women.  Usually I don't much care because they always seemed to keep it in their religion, only wanting to control Catholic women.  But lately I've seen more and more quotes from Catholic Bishops and Cardinals wanting all women (no matter their religion or lack of) to follow Catholic doctrine which is aggravating to say the least.

That's usually where I start having problems with religions.  I believe in freedom of religion.  If you want to follow some doctrine that's great.  I just don't want religious people to expect everyone to follow their belief which always happens.  It's happening now in the US.  The fact that fstdt exists is proof up the crazy out there.  People who want the United States to be "Jesusland", they insist the Constitution was meant to give Christians control of this country and the Founding Fathers meant that they were to merely tolerate other religions. 

I know many of my flist are religious to varying degrees.  I think that's great.  None of this post is meant to be a slight against you or your religion.  You wouldn't be on my flist if you were the kind of religious person I despise because I just can't be friends with those kind of people.

Like the two Mormon boys that accosted me on a walk last year.  They followed me for several blocks demanding I take their leaflet and hear their message despite me saying several times I wasn't interested.  I wish people would mind their own fucking business.

In the end the school will probably win any lawsuit using claims of religious freedom.  Which I think is plain crappy of them.  But I'm not Catholic so I stay out of it.  It was hard enough having my kids in Catholic school for three years, trying to balance what I want my kids to actually learn and the religious stuff they had to learn for school.  And I had no issues with Catholic school when I was growing up.  I loved my high school and learned a lot (although I almost failed Theology class several times because I just didn't give a flying fuck about what any of it).

/end random religious rant

Comments

[turnerwolf.livejournal.com]

I am a 'recovering catholic' but I will state that if the school is a parochial one, the Diocese has the right to hire and fire teachers for whatever reason it deems appropriate.

If the parochial school was receiving state or federal government aid, then I would say it would be a whole new ball of wax. If they are going to accept that kind of money, they should be held up to the same hiring and firing standards that any other non-religious school is held to.

[jennickels.livejournal.com]

Yep, that's how it should work. Although the idea of firing teachers/lay workers for not following Catholic doctrine to the T (like anyone does that, even the priests) is reprehensible to me it's their right.

I remember being told in junior high that us kids had no rights once we walked in that door. We were at the mercy of the school and their beliefs. I believe that was in reply to the kids wanting to do a walk-out because they didn't agree with some new rule. They felt it was their right to protest. The teacher informed us that we had no rights and there was nothing we could do about the rules, couldn't sue, couldn't complain since it was our parents' choice to send us to that school. We had to follow their rules. Ugh.

That's still the prevailing belief in Catholic schools.

I think what bothers me most is religious organizations using "freedom of religion" to discriminate and bully people. It's just so... wrong. WWJD?

Also cracks me up when the really nutty ones try to paint Jesus as some kind of conservative, gun-toting (metaphorically), whack job that would squash any opposition to what he preached. Funny, that's not the Jesus I learned and read about for 13 years. Wonder what Bible their reading.

[nynaeve-sedai.livejournal.com]

This is one place where you and I agree - I do *not* want a theocracy - and you know how incredibly devout I am (Protestant though, so...we tend to be a little more relaxed...depending on the denomination and where you're at). I prefer the government to stay out of my life thank you very much. They can't even balance a budget, I sure as hell don't want them touching my religion.

I'm pro-life (I admit it), but one of my recent complaints has been the hijacking of the discussion by the Catholic church (I fall more in line with Feminists for Life) and I'm pro-contraception. What bothers me about this story is that yet again I feel like the Catholic church as a whole has twisted something that should be good.

Within the Bible, the church is encouraged to be an open community - we call each other on sin and we help encourage each other towards our end - seeing Christ face to face. Some things are clear cut in the Bible...but IVF...that's not in there and that's one of those where I have my personal opinions, but creating legalistic rules about it...that I definitely have a problem with (Jesus called out the Pharisees about laying burdens on the backs of widows and not lifting one finger to help them - I feel much that way as a Christian - if I'm going to say something is wrong, what am I doing to encourage the good? What am I doing to help the situation or am I just sitting in a corner bitching?)

Anyway. Yeah. Your complaint is valid. I'm so Protestant I'd be drinking in a pub with Martin Luther LOL ^^

[jennickels.livejournal.com]

I try to remind myself that the average American Christian (or religious person in general) does not think like this. But the crazies seem to be growing in numbers. Or getting more vocal. It's kind of scary.

Although, on a funny note... they keep carrying on about how this should be a Christian nation and our laws based on the Bible but they freak out at the thought of Sharia Law and the government being controlled by Muslims. They just keep talking out of both sides of their faces completely oblivious to their hypocrisy.

I just wish more Christians would actually follow their religion instead of making up asinine rules and try to force them on everyone else. Jesus (at least the person I learned about in school) would be appalled by their behavior. I'm pretty sure he'd be considered a dirty, liberal hippie if he came back today. Those crazy fundies who keep praying for the End Times so Jesus will come back and smite all us heathens would dismiss him as quickly as they do those protesting Wall Street. Or wish death and misery on him because he doesn't believe in their crazy version of Christianity.

Oh and the constant persecution complex these people have... everyone is out to get the Christians. Everyone who? The country is still like 70% Christian or something. But they're the ones persecuted? They should try being a Muslim for the day. Or an atheist (luckily I've always lived in liberal parts of the country so it's not that big of a deal) afraid to even mention their lack of beliefs for fear of who knows what. I have friends online who are atheists in the Bible belt. They've had their cars keyed, their houses graffitied, death threats sent to them, constant harassment, lost jobs, had friends turn on them, their children ostracized all because they don't believe in the Christian god. Can you feel the Christian love?

If only people actually acted the way Jesus did. Then this world would be a much nicer place to live in. Sigh.

That's usually why I go to fstdt. It's good for lulz with all the crazy. But I have to take it in small doses or I start getting paranoid that the nutcases are taking over the world. Also, I love the snark of the commenters at the site.

[bluewillowtree.livejournal.com]

Like you, I believe in freedom of speech, etc. for all, even those whose opinions horrify me, so perhaps this school does have the right to do what they did, as wrong as I find it. But I find the underlying belief behind the firing even more disturbing. Because it sounds like the church's viewpoint is that people who don't want children should have to have them, because heaven forbid anyone use birth control, but that people who desperately want children and are unable to conceive them without assistance should just be out of luck? Both of those scenarios are so wrong to me.